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XOOPS: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Posted by: phpppOn 2007/7/3 1:53:56 29118 reads

The XOOPS Council held its first meeting on Saturday, June 30, 2007 with following agenda:

1. Mission and tasks of the council.
2. Project teams to finalize (mission and tasks).
3. Tasks to be done soon.
4. Membership and rules for the council.

All of the council members were present (area and experience): Christian - French community, management Dave_L - North America, technical irmtfan - Persian community, communication phppp - Asia/North America, development studioC - German community, design Discussed items are detailed below. ----- 1. Mission and tasks The council's role will not be to control the project, but rather to facilitate its progress. Initially the council will help get the teams organized and empowered to begin their tasks. Once that is done, the council will step back and let the teams do the work. If a team's progress stops, perhaps because it loses its leader or several members, the council will help get the team re-staffed and moving forward. If two teams have a "territorial" dispute, the council will act as mediator to help them resolve their differences. The council will help cover gaps in the teams' missions: If needed work is not being in some area, and the work does not fall under an existing team's mission, the council will either find an existing team willing to extend their mission, or create a new team. In summary, the more smoothly the project is operating, the less visible the council will be. The council will have these specific tasks: a. Approving teams' rules: A team's rules and/or policies will be approved by the Council. b. Accepting a team into the project, or dissolving a team. The Council can reject or dissolve a team if the team lacks adequate active members. c. Reviewing teams' monthly reports: The council, representing the project, will confirm that the team finishes its report, and it is valid in terms of contents; an evaluation on its progress is necessary in case the team is on a scheduled task. If a team fails for three times successively, the team will be suspended and a new leader will be chosen. ----- 2. Project teams and groups The council confirmed the overall organizational plan described in the article "Moving Forward". The following teams and groups will be established with assistance of the council. Appropriate teams may be created or tuned in the future in case necessary. Core Development team - mission: maintenance and continued development of the XOOPS core - leader: phppp - status: almost done, needs approval Design team: - mission: design of *.xoops.org sites' themes; rebuilding of *.xoops.org sites; management of official theme site - leader: studioC - status: needs approval Documentation team - mission: development and maintenance of project documentation; management of official documentation site - leader: jeffgr - status: team leader selected, need more members Community Coordinator team: - mission: responsible for daily administrative jobs; help users to contact corresponding teams upon their requests; help users to understand and use XOOPS correctly; help users to use the XOOPS official sites properly; management of forums on official support site, and help with - leader: kc0maz - status: almost done News group - mission: publication of project news - leader: to be assigned - status: to be built Technical group - mission: XOOPS server administration; support design team in building the *.xoops.org sites; technical support and maintenance for the sites; monitoring of modules and code used on the sites - leader: to be assigned - status: to be built Note: All official sites mentioned above will be using the domain of *.xoops.org. A project team is a formal management or working unit while a group here is more informal and group leaders and members can be chosen by the council directly. ----- 3. Council tasks to be done soon a. Work on the draft of the site organization: studioC and D.J. b. Monitor the teams' progress and help them finalize and announce the teams by end of the coming weeks: all c. Clean up the current xoops.org forum permissions, groups, ranks: D.J. and Christian d. Publish an article about the first council meeting: Dave_L and irmtfan ----- 4. Membership and rules for the council a. Membership The council will have five members, one of which will be the Core Development Team leader. The council members will serve for one year. For the next term, the current council members will nominate five candidates, and the teams will nominate five candidates. The Core Development Team leader will choose the remaining four council members from those candidates. b. Rules The Council will make decisions only as a group. Council members will have no authority to act individually.

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Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

domecc Published 07/03/2007 4:40 Just popping in Joined 10/30/2005 Comments 71

Great news. Thanks!

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Marco Published 07/03/2007 4:41 Updated 07/03/2007 4:42 Home away from home Joined 03/15/2004 Comments 1256

Thanks for the info. it seems to move in the right direction, aka more opensource, less selfpromotion, large experience. I like the one year duration concept.
Please add the skills/experiences into the nomination mandatory items (just to be sure next time it will be the same)
marco

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

irmtfan Published 07/03/2007 5:55 Module Developer Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 3419

thanks Marco!
for Membership of council we consider 2 parts:
participation of community ( teams select their own candidates with the way they like ( voting , self-recommendation , ...) vs. safety for council to select trustworthy and positive and well-skilled members for council.( current council members select other 5 candidates and core developer leader can reject or accept any candidates from council or teams)

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 6:08 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Sounds good in general few things I'd like to mention, question, etc.

First of all thanks DJ for allowing me the privilege to be brushed off, I spent considerable time to assist on your temporary council thing only to have what I said and did to fall upon deaf ears, at least a little message from you telling my my assistance was no longer required would of been good.

Well this is your prerogative so I'll try not to dwell on this.

I see communication mentioned as an experience of a council member, is this relating to the com's team we set-up or will this a different team, or....... does this mean a person will oversee our work?

Clarification please.

Quote:

Initially the council will help get the teams organized and empowered to begin their tasks. Once that is done, the council will step back and let the teams do the work.

Our team is already organised, and have already begun tasks, we already have docs ready for release, and have created various articles, we have also started promotion too, and have a php developer porting his module to XOOPS.

Quote:

If two teams have a "territorial" dispute, the council will act as mediator to help them resolve their differences.

But your council are also members of teams, therefore their views and opinions could be bias, also meaning they cannot be impartial.

Quote:

a. Approving teams' rules: A team's rules and/or policies will be approved by the Council.
b. Accepting a team into the project, or dissolving a team. The Council can reject or dissolve a team if the team lacks adequate active members.
c. Reviewing teams' monthly reports: The council, representing the project, will confirm that the team finishes its report, and it is valid in terms of contents; an evaluation on its progress is necessary in case the team is on a scheduled task. If a team fails for three times successively, the team will be suspended and a new leader will be chosen.

How does a team apply for your 'OFFICIAL' status and what benefits would that team receive?

Quote:

The council confirmed the overall organizational plan described in the article "Moving Forward". The following teams and groups will be established with assistance of the council. Appropriate teams may be created or tuned in the future in case necessary.

Ahh no mention of the communications team in there, but you mention news, docs, etc, etc.

Ok so our team will remain under the 'UNOFFICIAL' status.

As an active team (Communications) that have already produced products for the XOOPS community, these are ready for submission, where can we submit them, or do we need your rubber stamp of approval to get them out to the community?

Quote:

c. Clean up the current xoops.org forum permissions, groups, ranks: D.J. and Christian

Are ranks really required?

Personally I don't see the need for self glorification.

Quote:

a. Membership

The council will have five members, one of which will be the Core Development Team leader.
The council members will serve for one year. For the next term, the current council members will nominate five candidates, and the teams will nominate five candidates. The Core Development Team leader will choose the remaining four council members from those candidates.

Although in principle I agree, ie one year, five members, but this is still a closed circle thing, not open, there is nothing stopping 'The Core Development Team leader' from choosing his close friends that believe in his path, and thus not being in the OS spirit.

This method could still turn into a dictatorship, again.

Don't mean to sound negative, but I feel the work our team has done, was all wasted because we were not listened too or communicated with.

Ohh well I'll be an optimist for another month or so and see what you guys do, you know holding faith that XOOPS isn't gonna die.

But if nothing by then I suppose I have to re-consider my options and other CMS's that are now years ahead of XOOPS.

Seems a similar model to previous attempts.

Good luck guys I truly hope it works your way, this time, as XOOPS won't take many more beatings

Tom
Unofficial Communications Team

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 6:10 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Also thank your for NOT informing me I was removed from the news team.

Good start for you, lack of communication straight after posting this article.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

MadFish Published 07/03/2007 6:20 Updated 07/03/2007 6:33 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/27/2003 Comments 1056

I would like to propose that the Communications Team be considered for 'official' status, and combined with the current Documentation Team, which currently needs more members.

We have the necessary support infrastructure in place, and have prepared detailed Terms of Reference (will post separately) for the council to consider, and have projects already underway.

If the Council could consider this proposal at their next meeting, and give a 'yay or nay' I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

irmtfan Published 07/03/2007 7:05 Module Developer Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 3419

for clarification again:
council is just for project teams not community teams.

it just evaluate project teams.
only have the rights on project teams to announce them as "Official"

also i am a communication member and it is not related to my other memberships in the project like council.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

irmtfan Published 07/03/2007 7:25 Module Developer Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 3419

Quote:

Unofficial Communications Team

this was just the first meeting of council.
we should disscus in in the future about community drive teams.
many questions:
- how council can act in the community area?
- is this good to control them ? no no
- just confirm them as official? how to mentioned a community team is official.
- is this good to have an ambassador in every community team . +1 my vote

Tom, i understand you and your opinions and i dont know much about the past transient council.
also yes DJ have the rights to reject them. there is not a full democracy but community can participate.
you can read some more clarifications here:
http://xoopsinfo.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=137&forum=23

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 7:44 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Thank you irmtfan further clarification, still some issues unanswered there, but I'll await the participation from other council members.

There is no democracy.............

Can I ask why the news admin rights I held were removed, I'm just concerned here there was no communication of such actions, I've proved that I can be trusted with such little task.

Ok lets look at it like this:

1. I could manage the news sections
2. I was appointed a 'transient' council member only to be ignored on anything and everything I did and said.

There are other points which could be mentioned but I'll leave those out for now.

Now by the definitions recently, is a team member is active, producing, etc, etc, then he would be permitted to continue.

Now I get dismissed without even being informed, a simply E-mail, private message or msn chat would of been suffice.

but if this can't even be done right, what hope is there honestly.

I get it, lol silly me, it's because I questioned decisions, made suggestions and then defending those suggestions, but all along it was not in-line with the dictator.

ok rant over for now.

right irmtfan, so whats the purpose of the XOOPS official news team, docs team, etc, etc.

Why can't the Communications team fulfil these roles, you know yourself we're working, you've seen the proof, you've seen the results.

The 'Official' docs site could of been back up by now, there were even people waiting to do the job, and put content in there, although they felt the same as me, and have slowly faded off into the shadows.

Am I expected to fade away too?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 8:06 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Sorry I should add, I do applaud you guys finally starting to get organised, the Com's team was waiting to document and liaise with you.

Hopefully this will be the new start XOOPS really needs.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

MadFish Published 07/03/2007 8:08 Updated 07/03/2007 8:11 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/27/2003 Comments 1056

Ok, what I mean is: I would like to propose to the Council that the Communications Team be adopted as a Project Team (and combined with documentation, which is currently short of members).

The reasons are i) there is an overlap in function as we are doing documentation, ii) we have a structure set up already (and with detailed TOR for consideration) and iii) having official recognition will help us get access rights/resources to support our work eg. docs.xoops.org.

I don't know how to formally submit this proposal to the Council, but I would appreciate it if you could pass it on at the next meeting for consideration and decision.

Thank you.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 8:12 Updated 07/12/2007 4:03 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

<SNIP>

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 8:40 Updated 07/03/2007 8:41 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Democratic values allows an activity to keep on breathing and remain healthy. In an evaluation of a democratic activity, all the democratic values remain in the foreground and leadership of one particular person like dave_l, phppp, etc remains in the background.

Until today following areas have been identified by phppp/DJ and supported by the community:
----------------------
Letter to the XOOPS community
Posted by phppp on 2007/6/7 13:20:00

Development and management teams are being established. In the very near future, a couple of teams, including but not limited to, will be built:

1. Core Development - For XOOPS core development, hosted on sourceforge.net
2. Module Development - For third-party modules and addons, hosted on dev.xoops.org
3. Design - For XOOPS official default theme and official websites design
4. Documentation and Promotion - For XOOPS documentation site as well as technical tutorials and articles with addition of a promotion campaign
5. Community Coordination - daily community administrative jobs
----------------------

The convention could be that all the team leaders of different areas of XOOPS project as mentioned above form a project council. The Project council is not here to dominate one particular core developer and control the project but to allow the project to function properly. This can happen if all the team leaders of their respective areas are properly represented.

The Module Development Team was formed "not out of the blues", but due to the call by phppp mentioned above, that comprised of some important module developers as seen below:

akitson - Team Leader
vaughan (aka m0nty)
sulco
wtravel
solo71
mboyden
dhsoft

Xoops project is not just based on core but also on modules. Further, XOOPS project is also not just based on the core developer phppp/DJ or Skalpa but also on an extra-ordinary work by some very important modules like multimenu, protector, etc., who must avail quite a significant position.

Hence, I would naturally assume that all the five team leaders, mentioned above and called by DJ/phppp, would be part of the council.

I offered my participation in a module development team as I find this could be an area where I would be interested to participate. Hence, I would like to know why the responsible people, who are in the council now, have rejected and neglected the official status of Module Development Team. Therefore, I would like to know the following:

- Why was a Module Development Team announced in the first place?
- What compelling reasons came inbetween that some of the responsible people were forced to supress the existance of Module Development Team?
- Why was the team leader of Module Development Team (I do not know if akitson received any information in this regards) or any other team member not informed about the council formation?
- Why was Module Development Team not considered to have an official status?
----------------------
@irmtfan
>> also yes DJ have the rights to reject them. there is not a full democracy but community can participate.

I reject the idea of one person dictatorship. This is regardless of Skalpa, phppp, Dave_L, or any person on earth. XOOPS have suffered a lot due to the dominance by one person or groups of people who wanted to act in the interest of the community but failed at the end.
----------------------
@DAVE_L
> However, I am rather annoyed that Tom's role on the transient council, the status of the Comms/Docs team, and many many other areas seems to have been overlooked, ignored - or just stepped over.

So the formation of Module Development Team is not in your memory at all?

Hence, I consider it necessary that the council requires to be restructured and the powers needs to be revised.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 8:51 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Quote:

- Why was a Module Development Team announced in the first place?
- What compelling reasons came inbetween that some of the responsible people were forced to supress the existance of Module Development Team?
- Why was the team leader of Module Development Team (I do not know if akitson received any information in this regards) or any other team member not informed about the council formation?
- Why was Module Development Team not considered to have an official status?

It is DJ's will..........

or perhaps an oversight?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 8:59 Updated 07/03/2007 9:00 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@tom,

> It is DJ's will..........
> or perhaps an oversight?

Or, perhaphs lack of wisdom...

Xoops has suffered one of its biggest blows of "one man show" and NO MORE! And I hope that this message comes accross to every eye reading this message.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 9:02 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

Quote:

Documentation team
- mission: development and maintenance of project documentation; management of official documentation site
- leader: jeffgr
- status: team leader selected, need more members

Already exists - Comms/Docs team in action, and already working at XoopsInfo

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 9:03 Updated 07/12/2007 4:03 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

<SNIP>

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 9:09 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Quote:

@tom,

> It is DJ's will..........
> or perhaps an oversight?

Or, perhaphs lack of wisdom...

Xoops has suffered one of its biggest blows of "one man show" and NO MORE! And I hope that this message comes accross to every eye reading this message.

I agree on both parts, however........ ermmm I won't add more on this just yet, I think I made my point above.

Quote:

No sites are listed - unless its in invisible ink - or at point 00.000000001 pixels in size

pmsl, yeah saw that but didn't want to mention lol.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 9:26 Updated 07/03/2007 9:47 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

---------------------------------
§4. Membership and rules for the council
§4a. Membership
The Core Development Team leader will choose the remaining four council members from those candidates.
---------------------------------

The choice of council members cannot be based on "Council of friends" or an invitation by phppp. He is now a major player of the game and shall also remain. However he himself has to admit and surrender the fundamentals of democracy.

I demand the XOOPS Project Council to disolve and above mentioned council members to resign immediately.

I propose the following rules of the association:

§4a. Membership of the Council

The council is formed by each team leader of the respective five teams, namely:

1. Core Development Team
2. Module Development Team
3. Design Team
4. Documentation and Promotion Team
5. Community Coordination Team

§4b. Team leader

Each team leaders of the above five teams are elected on democratic fundamentls by each participating members of their respective teams or nominated by a concensus of the community.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

gtop00 Published 07/03/2007 10:06 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/13/2004 Comments 498

DearAll, please calm down.

It is more important to establish the organization than to find the people to run it.

Quote:

gtop00

Re: [XoopsProject] Updates on June 16th

#11
Friend of XOOPS
Joined: 2004/11/13
From Athens, Greece
Posts: 288

Quote:
Yet another democratic process ....

Dear All,

We all understand that this is not the proper way, but in what other way it could be done right now?
Why we do not give those volunteers the time they need to re-organize the project and keep it alive?
Afterwards (let's say in 6-12 months), we can ask for a more democratic, meritocratic or whatever other/proper process.
...

Regards
George

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

gtop00 Published 07/03/2007 10:37 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/13/2004 Comments 498

And yes, I agree with you.

I would also Like to see Tom (and some others) in this team.
Also, I believe that the Module and Theme Development teams should be included in the XOOPS Development Team together with the Core Development Team (Core D.T. 2 votes!)

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 10:40 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi gtop00,

So what do you propose actually, a commanders council or a democratic one? A project may fail if it has dictatorship but win on democratic values.

I want to see transparency, democracy and continuity in the XOOPS project.

I have not the slightest interest to object phppp or dave_l, etc as a person but the concept they are proposing as well as executing before the community. In a democracy, we do see freedom of expression. Also, between friends and fans, there should be room of criticism, which needs to be evaluated positively and constructively.

However, I have a big objection, as a XOOPS community member, on decisions by a person or a group of friends.

I would love to elect dave_l, simply because I like his engagement, friendlyness, etc. I would love to elect phppp, simply because I am his fan for a very well known reason. And I will remain.

Also there is no reason of team members to be selected by phppp, as they would be elected by the community anyway. On the contrary, there could be a team leader in the council having a totally different opinion. Such differences are necessary and vital aspects of democracy to breath.

Due to the dominance of phppp, the entire "Module Development Team" is thrown into the garbage. Other four members of the council have not even objected the idea of squashing this team.

Further, the current council members presumably remained under his dominance, which I find it wrong. All the four council members were nominated by phppp, as I see it from the article above. This kind of controlled mechanism has the highest potential of a disaster, which is what I am trying to prevent.

NOT AGIAN, not a new one!!!

Further, I have seen not one single convincing reason of the core team leader, who ever that may be, to dominate the council as a single handed action.

With a democratic approach, phppp, or any core developer remains free from any commands or decisions and could function autonome within their own team. However the point above in my demand is to simply achieve a transparent and democratic process, thereby achieving more community participation.

we certainly do not want people in the world to remember: "Xoops Council is by friends of phppp"! By a democratic council, we would invite many other developers, etc...

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 10:43 Updated 07/03/2007 10:45 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

And I agree with you two nice people also.

The people chosen are good ones.

I don't agree with the "Leader choses his team mates" in this case - but the people above, are probably some of those I would have selected.

I would love to see James there - but sadly thats not the case - but in his place, Phppp's co-colleague from the XoopsCouncil should be there ... ie - Tom.

However - I also agree with Draj & Tom - some of the process applied to select people is wrong - and there are some exclusions to the team that should be included.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 10:44 Updated 07/03/2007 10:59 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi gtop00 again,

------------------
Also, I believe that the Module and Theme Development teams should be included in the XOOPS Development Team together with the Core Development Team (Core D.T. 2 votes!)
------------------

This was a mistake by phppp as well as the members now. So you can see here what happens with a kind of "Council of friends" and the council starts with such a blunder.

Further, I look more into values and principles. I refuse to accept commanders approach of running a council but support a democratic one.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 10:53 Updated 07/03/2007 11:01 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi Dave,
--------------------
I don't agree with the "Leader choses his team mates" in this case - but the people above, are probably some of those I would have selected.
--------------------

I would have also done the same. However, what I do not like to know is to see them selected instead of elected.

One of the first thing I would have done is to elect, propose, nominate you and phppp. However, what I would hate is to see you being nominated by phppp.

And thats what is the discussion about, to make things very clear.

Further, why did you keep silent about the proposed Module Development Team being squashed? I want an explainationfrom you, especially as a council member. The proposal by phppp was just not out of the blues and without reasons. So what changed?

As you see the view points of others, the community does support the presence of it, if you may not have the interest to support it.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 11:04 Updated 07/12/2007 4:03 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

<SNIP>

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

damaster Published 07/03/2007 11:13 Updated 07/03/2007 11:16 Just can't stay away Joined 05/11/2003 Comments 556

Humm... same people fight for same titles! What a shame!
Are you really honest when using the expression Open Source Spirit, to me, it means, give something generously without expect something in return.

I fight for the change! You should be happy to see that old members set the project free and a New Team is in place for a year! Give them a chance.

Because the disaster already happen - The project is almost dead!
And you don't have much more time, just check PHP6 then audit XOOPS code which is too old, too crappy. Focus on the core without what the project for sure will die.

But if you insist in fight for titles and power positions... you're acting alike vautours !

A Fair Democratic Model in the World

The Best Model in The World

Have Fun !

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 11:19 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi Dave,

> Module team quashed? That's news to me?

Please explain why is it not there and why it does not have an official status. So all what we did is useless? Why did you form a group and have your work attested as official and keeping the remainder of others neglected.

So long as others did not receive any official status, the work remain in the garbage, unless it is pulled out back to life with respect.

Akitson was presumably not invited for this founding meeting, otherwise I would know from his mailings. He has regularly sent mailings o everyone and tried to eastabilish a system between us.

Why is Akitson blocked and due to what strategic or political reasons?

Is there any intention to keep the Module Development team dead for a while and have anathor parallel going? Whats the politic or the interest behind it?

Further, it is incorrect to organise a meeting of friends and call it official. The founding meeting of the aforesaid council was nothing but a meeting of friends called by DJ., whom he liked to have in there.

So such invitations implies exclusions. Was tom and akitson informed?
Was the community informed?

Please give me an official answer as to why the meeting was heald a top secret and why was the Module Development Team carefully ommitted to receive an official status?

If Akitson was the problem, lets talk with him and someone will take his position. I am more than sure that Akitson is not hanging here to obtain any position or has the slightest interest in supporting xoops.

However, I want to prevent personal games of all kinds and have the module development team become an integral part of the XOOPS project.

Further, the commander aspects of XOOPS team must be removed from the agenda in the future.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 11:22 Updated 07/03/2007 11:24 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi Damaster,

> Humm... same people fight for same titles! What a shame!

If you are directly or indirectly meaning my name somewhere, well, as you can see that i am not fighting for titles and it is no where there.

But to you, I must say that you should read my messages carefully and see what I am discussing.

> Because the disaster already happen - The project is almost dead!

Thats because of a one man show.

The project does not require dictorship values anymore and that makes me very angry if any one here is supporting dictorship approaches giving senseless reasons of all kinds.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

gtop00 Published 07/03/2007 11:22 Updated 07/03/2007 11:25 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/13/2004 Comments 498

Dear draj,

Please try to not give democracy lessons to people here. It is not a political forum, and may some of us be more democratic from you (or less?).

Quote:

I want to see transparency, democracy and continuity in the XOOPS project.

Also, try to understand that without "xoops project" there will not be any reason for transparency, democracy or continuity.

Let's first assure the existence of the project (to me it seems dead since months now) and then we can discuss everything...

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Dave_L Published 07/03/2007 11:26 XOOPS is my life! Joined 11/07/2003 Comments 2277

Please note the council's mission: The council's role will not be to control the project, but rather to facilitate its progress.
Initially the council will help get the teams organized and empowered to begin their tasks. Once that is done, the council will step back and let the teams do the work.

We all need to work together on this.

There were some points raised in the comments above that should be addressed. Since the council will work as a group, and not as individuals, I won't try to respond to them now, but will discuss them with the other council members so that a proper explanation can be given.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 11:28 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi gtop00,

> Please try to not give democratic lessons to people here. It is not a political forum, and may some of us be more democratic from you (or less?).

If people did respect values of democracy, they would have shown it.

The objection I am making is that they did not show a democratic value of the proceedings.

Read carefully the following:
--------------------
davidl2
However - I also agree with Draj & Tom - some of the process applied to select people is wrong - and there are some exclusions to the team that should be included.
--------------------
I have the highest respect to this statement by dave.

You gtop00 have two options:

1. Support
2. Oppose

But there is no reason to place my messages into something useless or educative ones.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 11:33 Updated 07/03/2007 12:17 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi Dave,

---------------------
I won't try to respond to them now, but will discuss them with the other council members so that a proper explanation can be given.
---------------------

Be brave and say that you resign to support a democratic council.

Even if the council is formed by the same people again after resignation and desolution, I - and many others - will respect it.

Otherwise discuss or make decisions within the "council of friends" or "council of phppp"!

I refuse to recognise a council of friends or council of phppp and work togather.

A council formed in this manner is not official. So if the communication team or module team is unofficial, then your council of friends is also unofficial. You all can simply term it as official because you are in there and not many will object to phppp.

I dare to, hoping to remain as friends with you all, even after my objections.

NB:
The above message is addressed to the Council of Friends, Dave_L!

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

studioC Published 07/03/2007 11:38 Friend of XOOPS Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 922

@TOM, sorry, I did not know what happened in the past. Personally, I would like to see you more involved too, as i would like to see James, who has left ... and some others who helped XOOPS by giving time and work.

But, ... We all thought (and still think) that we have needed a start, ... urgently. We are all member of the community, some of us longer than the other, but our heart is with xoops.

@all:

Quote:

I demand the XOOPS Project Council to disolve and above mentioned council members to resign immediately.

We have talked about resigning right after the basic things have done, but came to the opinion, it will last some time and that this way the community can overlook our work better than having defined no period.

Again, we are still member of the community, no rank or any higher authority than others. Our aim is to help XOOPS back on the track.

Quote:

The Council will make decisions only as a group. Council members will have no authority to act individually.

It was clear that there will be a discussion to what we have talked about in our first meeting within 3 and a half hours, but again, this should be a beginning and I don't think someone said that we are closed for your opinions.

To dictatorship, transparency and democracy: I really do think that we all have our own opinions and that each of us has a vote. The role of the core development is very important and I personally do agree that a "good working together" for the core devs is a high priority.

michael

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 11:48 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

Draj - the above posts, which you seem to have directed to me - are absolutely nothing to do with me at all!

I am on no official team at the moment - except on the site admin side of XI (and occasional admin here) - and am only involved in my own projects.

Are you confusing me with Dave_l? Easily done (I wish I could change my username as its confusing sometimes!)

Drop me a PM and explain what the issue is please.

Thanks

David (not Dave)

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 11:57 Updated 07/03/2007 12:08 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi David,

> Are you confusing me with Dave_l?

YES! Sorry.

Well, it could be seen form all my posts that I am addressing Davi_L as a "so-called" Council member and this is what I have mentioend several times as well.

If you are not the same one, then there is a confusion. But I am surprised that you answered back! So if you felt being addressed, then I am really sorry about that. I thought they are the same.

Changing the name would be not a less valuable option, I suggest...

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 12:06 Updated 07/03/2007 12:11 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hello Micheal,

------------------------------
To dictatorship, transparency and democracy: I really do think that we all have our own opinions and that each of us has a vote. The role of the core development is very important and I personally do agree that a "good working together" for the core devs is a high priority.
------------------------------

So if the core developers are able to manage a group work, thats fine. However that does not mean that thecore developers could play games with the community the way they want. Currently, the group have played with the people by not informing on this topic or neglected totally, like Module Development Team.

So what about the opinion of the community? Do they have any rights?

So what about the recent formation of Module Development Team? Do they have any vote or place?

If only the role of core is very important, then what has module developers to do here? Are they to be considered to be important?

Why have you neglected the presence of Module Development Team?
-----------------------
Again, we are still member of the community, no rank or any higher authority than others. Our aim is to help XOOPS back on the track.
-----------------------
There are hundreds of modules that are dead. Is it so, that you and your council friends are the only ones that are interested to have XOOPS going back alive?

What about the module developers who showed their interest to get into a team and help getting the wounded XOOPS going live again?

What is the compelling reason of throwing the Module Development team into garbage?, when XOOPS needs modules?

Kennst du auch Vereinsrecht? Viele Grüße...

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 12:15 Updated 07/03/2007 12:20 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hello Dave_L!
----------------------------
Please note the council's mission: The council's role will not be to control the project, but rather to facilitate its progress.
Initially the council will help get the teams organized and empowered to begin their tasks. Once that is done, the council will step back and let the teams do the work.
----------------------------
Is the current council's mission is to block the recognition of Module Development Team and neglect the listed module developers as well as team leader? How do you explain your neglegence about it?

So:

What facility is given to the Module Developers? What kind of responsibilities do they have in the Role of the council?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

studioC Published 07/03/2007 12:37 Friend of XOOPS Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 922

@draj:

Quote:

Kennst du auch Vereinsrecht?

Vereinsrecht ist nicht wirklich meine Stärke. Ich arbeite zwar seit über 10 Jahren in der Verwaltung eines grösseren (caritativen) Vereins, aber das muss nix heissen!

We did not have a discussion to "throw away the Module Developent team into garbage". While I am talking about xoops, i am talking about the XOOPS core. This does not mean, that modules, themes, addons, support ... does not belong to xoops. XOOPS without any modules, themes, docs isn't that funny, isn't it? But IMHO it is [first] very important to know where XOOPS (the core) is going, to give us (all kind of devs) the possibility to continue our work on where our skills are.

We can continue to talk about a new XOOPS with daily changing priorities. We can have votes, polls and many other things and we can have extended discussions we had the last months. I for one, do think that we do not have the time to do so.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 13:16 Updated 07/03/2007 13:51 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Dear Michael,

(Mind you all, NO ONE told myself to argue here for or against, nor I am competing for a position or a title)

> We did not have a discussion to "throw away the Module Developent team into garbage".
Q.1
Why has there been a silent and secret meeting? When was this formally announced? Did you ask other members about announcing the foundation of a council to the community? Why was it kept secret?

Q.2
Are you Michael aware of the presence of a Module Development Team? Did you know about the team leader akitson and we as members? Are you aware of the following:

akitson Posted on: 2007/6/27 7:42
https://xoops.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=59631&forum=47
Hi Ashley,
Before the team is officially announced by Project Council, please use the "XOOPS Project team forum (temporary)". If you need a dedicated forum, I can open a temporary one under that forum board.
D.J.

Why was our Module Development Team carefully neglected?
Are you aware of this carefully calculated behaviour, if it was one?
Why did DJ revoke the rights of Akitson after assigning it once?
Why did you not object to his behaviour and politics?
Why did DJ want to let Akitson continue to play a game with us team members and secretly form a council in the back doors? Did you know this?

Q.3
Did you formally ask during the discussion about the representation of the team leader or a representative from the Module Development Team? Did you know that a foundation based on a non-democratic process remains in terms of Vereinsrecht to be not recognised for logical reasons?

Q.4
What is your objection in having an official Module Development Team at all? Why do you beleive that the representation of a Module Development Team could be a harm in the Council, if you have reservation?

Q.5
If you welcome the idea of an official representation from and by module developers, what steps do you propose for its inclusion in the XOOPS project council?

Q.6
Did you Michael receive an invitation by phppp? What is wrong in you being an official team leader of Design team elected by people or community? Why are you afraid to be nominated by the community and why are you prefering an invitation by phppp?

Q.7
Why did you agree on the articles of association that ONE CORE developer selects other four council members? Did you not think of this to be a commander system? Why did you not place any objection to this aspect proposed most likely by phppp?
Is this not, in your view, a dictatorship?

Q.8
If there is one main core developer in the council, and others appointed, nominated or elected by the community, what could here be an extra-ordinary harmful interest that would destroy the development of the core? Would it not be a better solution to reduce powers given in the hands of one person?

Should the XOOPS future take up a direction that it shall never suffer from the big hands of just one person?
-----------------
My above comment has been edited and following was added
-------------------
Hi draj,

First, the module development team is considered as a community driven team, please check the article:https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3820

Second, the module development team has never been announced officially yet and all rights assigned to the team leader candidate were temporary.

Third, as stated in the article, new team can be created or tuned in the future in case necessary. If you think the module development team is more of a Project team than of a community driven team, please make your proposals.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

wtravel Published 07/03/2007 13:46 Joined 08/27/2003 Comments 987

I must admit that even though I have all faith in the people proposed on this council, I do not agree with the decisions made so far on several points:

4. Membership and rules for the council

Quote:

a. Membership

The council will have five members, one of which will be the Core Development Team leader.
The council members will serve for one year. For the next term, the current council members will nominate five candidates, and the teams will nominate five candidates. The Core Development Team leader will choose the remaining four council members from those candidates.

I believe the community needs to have the ability to evaluate the work of the council and to act accordingly. I assume that the council will do a great job, but in case not, the community has to be able to make changes accordingly.

With the system described above the core team leader stays in command at all times with the power to replace people when he wishes. This is not a sound principle for an open source community in my opinion.

Regarding both module development and promotion, they should be part of the project itself and not the community.

The project organization facilitates the means of the project to the community and therefor promotion should be part of the project team.

The proposed plans seem to be good from the point of view of core development, because that is where the focus lies. My advise would be to split the presentation of the project but keep the organization of the whole project together.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

phppp Published 07/03/2007 13:51 XOOPS Contributor Joined 01/25/2004 Comments 2857

Hi draj,

First, the module development team is considered as a community driven team, please check the article:https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3820

Second, the module development team has never been announced officially yet and all rights assigned to the team leader candidate were temporary.

Third, as stated in the article, new team can be created or tuned in the future in case necessary. If you think the module development team is more of a Project team than of a community driven team, please make your proposals.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Red_Bee Published 07/03/2007 13:53 Just popping in Joined 05/12/2004 Comments 98

Can we have a Security group, main job is to monitor for vulnerability of any module that uses a third party module of PHP for vulnerability. A great example of this was an old version of xmlrpc.php used in Tinycontent.

They have to report and edit the module description in repository that the module is not safe to use.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 14:12 Updated 07/03/2007 14:15 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

Red_Bee: I have been approached by several members of the Module team to work on the XOOPS Community Addons site.

One of the duties of the Addons team will be to provide news of any reported security issues - and alter the download status until such time as they are dealt with.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 14:25 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

Agree with you - a security team... or perhaps security specialists from Module & Core teams - is a good idea.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

chippyash Published 07/03/2007 15:19 Friend of XOOPS Joined 01/29/2004 Comments 501

Davidl2 said
Quote:

I have been approached by several members of the Module team to work on the XOOPS Community Addons site.

Which module team was that David?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

chippyash Published 07/03/2007 15:32 Updated 07/03/2007 16:01 Friend of XOOPS Joined 01/29/2004 Comments 501

draj said
Quote:

The council is formed by each team leader of the respective five teams, namely:

I have to say I agree with this. It makes absolute sense from an organisational stance to have the leaders of (whatever is considered to be) the main organisational units in any organisation represented in 'the board room'. It ensures that there is coherence between the respective teams. It is established practice in the vast majotity of major organisations whether they be for profit or not for profit. the reason - because it's what works and has been proven so.

To carry the analogy further, if the council want to co-opt non executive members due to their experience or breadth of vision, then it should do so. Generally these people do not have a vote on the board but can provide extremely valuable input.

I'd also make one other observation, and one I have made elsewhere; the leader of the council should not be a team leader. To continue the analogy, the 'chairman of the board' is responsible to ensure that the board (or in our case, the council) operates effectively and efficiently (and is responsible to the shareholders for that). Generally they will also have the casting vote. This chairman can be chosen from outside of the team leaders or from within their ranks, but in the latter case, should step down as the leader of the respective team to concentrate on the task in hand. How do you choose one? Unfortunately, the community does not resemble shareholders and therefore voting by the general community for a chairman is probably not viable. The council could however elect a chairman as a second best method.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

BlueStocking Published 07/03/2007 15:38 Home away from home Joined 02/16/2007 Comments 1191

Since the offical documents are going to be hosted at doc.xoops.org why should there be a problem with just submitting them (from xoopsinfo) here to the leader jeffgr and letting him do his job.

I believe it has been stated that xoopsinfo.com is a community effort project and its fruits will be shared, but it is separate from xoops.org in management and purpose.

The 'official documents' are not going to be hosted there, on xoopsinfo.com, as I understand the current setup. A simple link to the xoopsinfo.com documents could be placed on the docs.xoops.org site for additional documents created on that site, not yet enjoying official status.

IF I decided to do something with automatic translations, though not acceptable under the current line of thinking, (on xoopsinfo.com) I could develop it on my own and they (docs.xoops.org) could provide a link, to my work, or adapt it as they saw fit. They may even be open to 'other' formats, such as html and straight text.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

chippyash Published 07/03/2007 15:51 Friend of XOOPS Joined 01/29/2004 Comments 501

draj wrote
Quote:

Why was the team leader of Module Development Team (I do not know if akitson received any information in this regards) or any other team member not informed about the council formation?

I can categorically state that I have had no communication from phppp or any other "council" member about the formation of the "council". Furthermore I can inform you that at no time has phppp or anyone else kept me informed as to the status of the Module Development team, or the reasons for why it appears to have dropped off of the edge of the world. Finally, phppp, having given me access to dev.xoops.org so that I could start a review of it in preperation for establishing the team, did not inform me that he was withdrawing access or offer (before or after the event) any reason as to why.

I think mushrooms and manure come to mind.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

BlueStocking Published 07/03/2007 15:51 Updated 07/03/2007 15:59 Home away from home Joined 02/16/2007 Comments 1191

http://docs.xoops.org with its own index.html file .. why wouldn't that be viable.

Currently, it does not have its own material (docs) placed there. A simple index.html file containing links to the current documents available and the translation code included on the page and much of the grunt work would be done. People could edit <them> on an as needed basis for re-submitting.

That is my opinion, there is no need to shut out what is readily available, and doable.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 15:56 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi DJ,

DJ, XOOPS was not Skalpa and XOOPS shall never be DJ.
Did you get it by now very clearly?
May I remind you that XOOPS is a sum total of all the efforts by the community, users, module developers, core developers, etc.

----------------
DJ wrote:
First, the module development team is considered as a community driven team,
please check the article:
https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3820
----------------

So what about the news as following by tom?
Was this a joke?

I consider the news by tom to be official!
https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3809

Your concept of project and community has remained your mind and in your illusions.
James, the proposed community team leader, has left and I hope that you realise and acknowledge.

There are others who are thinking of leaving or have left.
(I beleive tom would be the first to leave now, if he sees the reoccurance of dictatorship!)

Core development team is also community driven as much as module development team. All are working in the interest of XOOPS open source concept.

What did not work in the true spirit of transparency is your methods of keeping people uninformed and changing your mind after officially announcing a Module Development Team. So if you want to classify it under community driven, please classify first the core team also as commuity driven.

However regardless of what you classify, fact remains that the community should be given enough oppurtunity to work, control and interface with the council.

You have no rights or any legitimate or logical reason to prevent this. At the same time, you cannot and must not protect your position in the Council and declare that you are the sole authority to choose the council members, the cards you wish to play.

----------------
DJ wrote:
Second, the module development team has never been announced officially yet and all rights assigned to the team leader candidate were temporary.
----------------

Did you want to let this happen at all?

I consider your friends in your own so called council to be unofficial, which is formed secretely and only by your oen wishes EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE ANNOUNCED OFFICIALLY. It is the community who acknowledges what is official and what not and not what you decide.

Unless you reverse it, you will not be able to easily getting out of this silly mess you created.

----------------
DJ wrote:
Third, as stated in the article, new team can be created or tuned in the future in case necessary. If you think the module development team is more of a Project team than of a community driven team, please make your proposals.
----------------

I PROPOSE THE FOLLOWING:

1.
YOU NEED TO BELEIVE THAT, there is no complelling reason to create a new MODULE DEVEOPMENT TEAM. You simply have to bear in mind, accept that this team exists and support it. You simply MUST invite all the module developers to become an integral part of the MODULE DEVEOPMENT TEAM and have their representation in the XOOPS Project Council with immediate effect.

2.
You should encourage all the five aspects (which can be expanded if required) of the project below to form as team leaders and invite all the team leaders for a new discussions, thereby forming a NEW DEMOCRATIC XOOPS PROJECT COUNCIL. (They could be even the same people)

1. Core Development Team
2. Module Development Team
3. Design Team
4. Documentation and Promotion Team
5. Community Coordination Team

Let the team decide on their own who shall represent their activity in the council.

3.
Learn to accept your challengers or people with a different opinion in a democratic environment.
Learn to work with tom and accept his presence or interest as well as his contribution!
The same applies to other people that you need to learn to work with.
Be fair to XOOPS community, him (tom) and others.

At the sametime, I expect no such ridicolous behaviour of organising "something official in the back doors" or "playing with people" from you again in the future.

I would be very much happy to invite all the module developers to participate into the module development team discussions.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

mboyden Published 07/03/2007 16:23 Moderator Joined 03/09/2005 Comments 484

Maybe we can learn from some of the direction from the Wikipedia founder. He shared his thoughts on collaborative on-line communities on CIO's website.

Personally, I'm into collaborative communities that generally elect their own leadership and that they be coordinators, and I'd prefer that we have 3 coordinators per team. Leaders will show themselves to be such and their peers will recognize them by electing them into those positions. We must become a community-led community to survive long-term. I must admit that my heart is with this community and this CMS, but I remain worried about the future. I continue to push my fears aside and strive towards being a part of this forward movement. But, my business depends upon a strong, solid, community-based open-source CMS with solid state-of-the-art capabilities.

Let's continue the discussion, let's continue to strive long-term for more community-based leadership, but let's get something going and soon or we will fall further behind in the race to be the best.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

studioC Published 07/03/2007 16:25 Friend of XOOPS Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 922

@Draj, (a reply to an earlier post, you're writing fast)

i'm not involved in all things happened in the past, so I might not be the best person to give answers to all of your questions actually, some are answered by d.j. as well.

It wasn't a real secret or silent meeting for me, as you might suggest. The last years I do often have had discussions with xoopser from all over the world without any formally announcement though talking about xoops, a possible future of XOOPS and events around xoops. But you are correct, this meeting was sure a bit different and to take part in this meeting was an invitation from d.j.

And no, there is nothing wrong beeing elected as team leader of Design team. Like you followed the "modules part", we are doing this for the theme team, and, ... I'm not afraid to be elected. Within our team, we have had the discussion. Personally I can imagine some others with more skills to lead the design or theme team, but there were not that many on "our" list.

like I said before, ... again, we are still member of the community, no rank or any higher authority than others. Our aim is to help XOOPS back on the track.

Design Team and Council are 2 different things for me, for the second, i got an invitation, yes.

To the form of organization: I personally could imagine different ways and opportunities to get "more democracy". My humble opinion in this case: D.J. could have continued, like we are used to from the past, ONE at the top, the core developent leader. To have more people involved is perhaps a beginning. What I have missed in the past, at least in the position of the webmaster of the german support community, was the lack of information, what the hell was going on with x:o!

This way it will be an approach.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

chippyash Published 07/03/2007 17:45 Friend of XOOPS Joined 01/29/2004 Comments 501

Two questions D.J.

1/ I note that amonsgt the responsibilities of the Design team is Quote:

management of official theme site

What pray is the difference, (and please do explain it carefully,) between a theme and a module in terms of their importance to Xoops? Why is one to be accorded an offical site whilst the other is discarded in the hope that someone in the community will pick it up?

2/ What is to become of dev.xoops.org?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 18:03 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@mboyden

> We have to get out of the idea of the one-person-makes-the-decision mentality
if we want XOOPS to survive.

Just received your message from the SF forum.

May I say it quite directly and bluntly my version of your sentence:

We have to get out of the idea of the (one-person-makes-the-decision) phppp/DJ mentality
if we want XOOPS to survive.

Why the hell we depend since years for all kinds of children stories. Are we cowards to face fronts and difficulties?

There are so many programmers in the team and many will join if we successfuilly could end this very naive and stupid "one-person-makes-the-decision" ERA, however difficult this may be!

Lets all join togather and build our strengths to come togather. Keeping silent during this difficult times only invites dictatorships and a one-man-show, which we have see since years.

Xoops and the community needs to move on. Now I have had enough of this garbage one-man-shows.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 18:25 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi Michael,

Erscheint es deutlich, dass wir einiges gemeinsam lösen müssen. Es tut mir Leid...

As you know there are hundreds of eyes watching and eagerly awaiting for answers and actions.

So if you are not afraid of being elected by the community, what stops you to declare a resignation?

> It wasn't a real secret or silent meeting for me

Where was it announced?

Except the five of you, who knew about it?

If it was announced to you four, what do you think is the legitimacy of this meeting, especially keeping your own position in mind?

You may have had dicsussion in the past but they were informal. We are talking about a very important action before the community. It has to be formal, it has to be democratic and it has to be legitimate.

>But you are correct, this meeting was sure a bit different and to take part in this meeting was an invitation from d.j.
> And no, there is nothing wrong beeing elected as team leader of Design team.

Why do you still continue to be a part of "a phppp Council" and claim to be an official member? Why dont you become a legitimate member appointed or elected by the community where phppp would be also a part of the same (if he wants to be)!

> Our aim is to help XOOPS back on the track.

You would serve the XOOPS community the best, if you refrain dictation or invitation by one single person, whom-so-ever he may be, now or in the future, (talking about the principle) and be with the community.

> ONE at the top, the core developent leader.

Could we agree to end this One-person-Era in the history of xoops?
If yes, would you participate in the new formation of a democratic council?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

studioC Published 07/03/2007 18:37 Friend of XOOPS Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 922

@akitson

Quote:

What pray is the difference, (and please do explain it carefully,) between a theme and a module in terms of their importance to Xoops? Why is one to be accorded an offical site whilst the other is discarded in the hope that someone in the community will pick it up?

you asked d.j. directly but I may answer with that what i understood for there were some irritations on my site too at first.

a sidenote: beeing official or not is not a measure for being important for XOOPS or not. IMHO XOOPS will fail if there is no supportcommunity, modules, perhaps themes? ...

Personally, modules are more important than themes. Themes let you only display the output in a nice way.

One of the jobs of the "official theme team" is to care for the x:o site(s), to maintain default themes and templates which will be served with XOOPS core download.

Here the theme team is not intended to be a possible community driven theme site with tons of themes, graphics and stuff.

michael

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/03/2007 19:18 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

draj:
Quote:

1. Core Development Team
2. Module Development Team
3. Design Team
4. Documentation and Promotion Team
5. Community Coordination Team

§4b. Team leader

Each team leaders of the above five teams are elected on democratic fundamentls by each participating members of their respective teams or nominated by a concensus of the community.

I also suggested this as part of being ignored on the temporary council whilst someones personal agenda was fulfilled.

gtop00:
Quote:

It is more important to establish the organization than to find the people to run it.

Agreed, however a little message telling me I was no longer needed would of been good, rather than being cast out in the shadows, when I was working.

gibaphp:
Quote:

Ok George, i agree with you too.

We go to analyze the elect names, in mine to understand, good names really

Christian - French community, management - Leader community, exelent name.

Dave_L - North America, technical - A long long time one staf xoops, good name too and exelent option.

irmtfan - Persian community, communication - Leader community and present member XOOPS the long long time. Exelent option.

phppp - Asia/North America, development - Leader dev core and actual manager.

studioC - German community, design - Leader community and present for all moments xoops. exelent option.

It is not possible to please 100% of the world, but I see good names here. It could add +2 names to make an annual report and to have certainty that if the votes will be equivalents, the community will be in good hands. We go to take this option in front because it is what it is defined and to believe that goes to give certain. Long life xoops.

ps: But I would like to see the Tom here.

I agree there are some very good names here, and they will do an outstanding job I'm sure.

Thank you for putting your trust in me, however even if I was offered a chance, I would turn it down, I couldn't take being asked to do a job and then being totally ignored in everything I did without acknowledgment.

In my opinion the 'Transient Council' was more a front to fulfil DJ's own personal agenda, as nothing James I tried to do would hold any weight for DJ, what ever he decided happened.

I made a request in the Council forums, to allow me access to the spotlight, as there was a security release that should of been more visible. He ignored all I said, so I made the request publicly, he then replied in the private council forums calling my actions improper.

Well I'm sorry he wasn't listening, and at the time there was news on security updates, which should of been more visible.

Please note the 'Private' Council forums were DJ initiative also, I personal wanted them made public and within XOOPS, but he didn't want to listen.

gtop00
Quote:

I would also Like to see Tom (and some others) in this team.

Again as above, I'd rather not.

Also on this point there has to be some decisions made as to not over crowd the council with too many people, and I believe that is what is done here.

The names are of outstanding people.

I once told DJ there will soon come a time he will have to make an unpopular decision but for the right reasons, I just hope this is the right reason.

My gripe here is about how I was treated and about how I've been dismissed without even telling me and also about the Communication team or how DJ can dictate who will run the project.

I thought we were having a change this time and going for democracy rather than dictatorship.

Draj:
Quote:

On the contrary, there could be a team leader in the council having a totally different opinion. Such differences are necessary and vital aspects of democracy to breath.

So true......

David:
Quote:

the people above, are probably some of those I would have selected.

I would love to see James there - but sadly thats not the case - but in his place, Phppp's co-colleague from the XoopsCouncil should be there ... ie - Tom.

However - I also agree with Draj & Tom - some of the process applied to select people is wrong - and there are some exclusions to the team that should be included.

yup, those are some good people.

Again, I wouldn't allow DJ the privilege to ignore me again, as he plays out his own personal agenda.

Some, a lot or even all, regardless this process is flawed.

Draj:
Quote:

This was a mistake by phppp as well as the members now. So you can see here what happens with a kind of "Council of friends" and the council starts with such a blunder.

Will these turn of events lead down the same slippery road, I hope not but we'll see.

Damastar:
Quote:

Humm... same people fight for same titles! What a shame!

Not sure where your looking, but I see no fight for titles.

Damaster:
Quote:

Are you really honest when using the expression Open Source Spirit, to me, it means, give something generously without expect something in return.

There are some things, such as courtesy, honesty and respect.

Now I was asking for the courtesy of being informed I was cast away into the shadows.

Quote:

I fight for the change! You should be happy to see that old members set the project free and a New Team is in place for a year! Give them a chance.

It's all about chances, before the community was informed of DJ taking on leader developer role, I spoke with him via msn and told him he would have my support, but support as with communication is a two way thing.

I simply don't agree with everything and therefore I question it, is this not part of democracy?

Damaster
Quote:

But if you insist in fight for titles and power positions... you're acting alike vautours !

I see no fight for titles or power positions here, as I've already spoke about in my post.

I'm not sure of your use of the word 'Vautours', is this French for vultures, if so, then you have the wrong idea, and it's kinda the pot calling the kettle black.

Draj
Quote:

> Because the disaster already happen - The project is almost dead!

Thats because of a one man show.

The project does not require dictorship values anymore and that makes me very angry if any one here is supporting dictorship approaches giving senseless reasons of all kinds.

Ditto

Studio_C:
Quote:

@TOM, sorry, I did not know what happened in the past. Personally, I would like to see you more involved too, as i would like to see James, who has left ... and some others who helped XOOPS by giving time and work.

Thank you for addressing me personally.

The issues I'm talking about here are present, and not really past, and they now fall under the current leadership of XOOPS.

Studio_c
Quote:

We have talked about resigning right after the basic things have done, but came to the opinion, it will last some time and that this way the community can overlook our work better than having defined no period.

Again, we are still member of the community, no rank or any higher authority than others. Our aim is to help XOOPS back on the track.

Which is a good thing, however the current module does not promote democracy, and the way things have been handled is very debatable too.

Studio_c:
Quote:

It was clear that there will be a discussion to what we have talked about in our first meeting within 3 and a half hours, but again, this should be a beginning and I don't think someone said that we are closed for your opinions.

Well I'd consider it closed, when DJ continued to head down the path of his own agenda, ie asking me to participate, then ignoring me when I raised questions and furthermore then casting me into the shadows.

DJ/PHPpp
Quote:

Hi draj,

First, the module development team is considered as a community driven team, please check the article:https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3820

Second, the module development team has never been announced officially yet and all rights assigned to the team leader candidate were temporary.

Third, as stated in the article, new team can be created or tuned in the future in case necessary. If you think the module development team is more of a Project team than of a community driven team, please make your proposals.

Note to community, not one of my issues where addressed by DJ, he simply ignored them as he has done with all my work, suggestions and questions.

Is he hoping they go away.

past transcripts anyone? lol

Well there are lots of others comments below what I'm quoted, however my replay is already too long, and I'm sure DJ will just ignore it again, so I'll stop here for now.

Tom
(Someone starting to loose all faith)

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Dave_L Published 07/03/2007 19:58 XOOPS is my life! Joined 11/07/2003 Comments 2277

Tom (and others):

The organization is still a WIP (work-in-progress).

The council was formed quickly because the project needs to get back on track quickly. A small group of people who could work together was needed for this purpose.

At first I didn't want to be on the council; on reflection, I accepted D.J.'s invitation because I thought I could help get things moving forward.

I see being on the council more as a time-consuming task than as an "honor", and am looking forward to being able to focus instead on core development.

My hope is that anyone with the desire will be able to participate in the project, in a way that's satisfying to both the individual and the project.

Please stick around and allow some time for the organization to evolve.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Catzwolf Published 07/03/2007 20:04 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

1 month into a new leadership and what does XOOPS now have?

1. A new leader. A leader who is now managing to carry on from the old one.
2. A new council. A council that now seems to be changing new members quicker than I can Say Xoops'
3. A new set of mistrust growing, more on this later...

What does XOOPS not have?
1. Well, I personally do not wish to repeat the Community wishes when it comes to the simplist things. ie Short term and long term changes. I have already tried to discuss the short term issues that need attention and I will not be bothering to discuss the long term.

I have now offered my services to the new XOOPS team on more than one accasion like many others just to be ignored or pushed aside.

DJ, you really need to think about what position you want here at Xoops, if you want to continue as the core developer of XOOPS then you need to pass the star to someone who can concentrate on the real issues and problems XOOPS wide and you should run the XOOPS core development team. Sorry you can't do both and give your all to this community as a whole.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/03/2007 20:20 Updated 07/03/2007 20:24 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

Hi Dave_L,

> At first I didn't want to be on the council; on reflection, I accepted D.J.'s invitation because I thought I could help get things moving forward.

Why do you beleive that you should be under phppp's underhand? You do a good job and have the faith of the community. What you did was a blunder listening to a one man's show! I am his fan not not of his dictatorship. What you did is fed his ego to remain in the compitetion.

I ask you to resign and come back to the community instead of supporting a one-man show.

> The council was formed quickly because the project needs to get back on track quickly.

Again, the project suffers if there is dictatorship. As you can see from the entire discussion how the world is watching the naked act of you five guys and writing posts in several forums. That simply discredit you guys in total and does not help XOOPS at all.

> I see being on the council more as a time-consuming task than as an "honor"

If you remain under the nose of phppp, then no one shall ever honour you.

> My hope is that anyone with the desire will be able to participate in the project

Then allow the true spirit of democracy and open source spirit. It is your first and the foremost responsibility to resign and declare that you respect the demands of the community. Only this option will allow people to participate.

@Catzwolf
> what does XOOPS now have?

There was a one-man-show before, which functioned silently allowing a terrible phase of illisions to brew, to be termed as a Skalpa-Illusion-phase or skalpa-one-man-show.

We have a one-man-show today, organised, demonstrated and proved, known as phpbb-one-man-show!

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Marco Published 07/03/2007 20:26 Updated 07/03/2007 20:33 Home away from home Joined 03/15/2004 Comments 1256

hello guys

Please stop running after titles and flaming about those. Those killed us one time. Don't make the same error 2 times.

Xoops is at first a product, driven by a community. So kill the product and you will have no community at all.
==> All our efforts should be concentrated at very short term on core vision / re-architecture,and, on parallel, on fixing all bugs, and incorporating worth patches in a 2.0.18 collection version (because there is a need to affirm contributing is worth on the XOOPS planet, so don't ignore valuable proposed patches/fixes)
==> mod/theme developers need core innovations to push their ideas
===> Many bugs and security issues are well known and fixes are available for ages, i'm sure we will be mature enough to integrate them.
===> I don't mind if Mr x or Miss y has the right position, i want XOOPS to move, nothing more, nothing else .
It's time to prove community a new era has really come. But for that there is the need of a vision about XOOPS evolution, i mean on a core point of view.

So please stop non constructive discussions.
I dream each night to see a clear core roadmap, the svn moving days after days, integrating the trackers contribution, more and more contributions within the SF trackers, more and more new skilled people coming to sort out the hole in which XOOPS is on the way to fall.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 20:29 Updated 07/12/2007 4:02 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

<SNIP>

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

davidl2 Published 07/03/2007 20:31 Updated 07/12/2007 4:02 XOOPS is my life! Joined 05/26/2003 Comments 4843

<SNIP>

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

alitan Published 07/03/2007 23:45 Quite a regular Joined 03/14/2004 Comments 399

Is this a joke? Are you kidding? Come on is this a Content Management System development website, or constitutional elections? Congratulations Management and memebers of Xoops.org: You just wasted another month of Constitutional reforms.
Everyone seems to be eager for power and a good verbal fight thereafter.
I think everyone should close all these forums that talk about team leaders, team members, and blah blah blah.
Just have someone to be the team manager (not even leader), and others free to join/leave the team.
whoever wants to join, joins, whoever wants to contribute, contributes, and whoever wants to leave, leaves.
I mean seriously, you are treating this website as a whole new world. In my comparisson between xoops.org and the world I consider the following similarities:
Project Leader= President/Prime Minister/Dicator
Xoops Foundation Chairperson= Constitutional King or Queen
Moderators= Military/The Police
Team leaders= The Cabinet
blah blah blah...
Oh I almost forgot, we just had a Coup d'état. The only thing missing is curfews, wars, atomic bombs, and finally chaos.
Come on don't make cyberspace into an actual world, don't take all internet seriously.
Remeber, XOOPS is NOT a COMPANY, NOT AN Organization(despite the domain name controversy) and it is DEFINATELY not A COUNTRY OR a new WORLD.
{{<<Alitan>>}}

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

irmtfan Published 07/04/2007 2:45 Module Developer Joined 12/07/2003 Comments 3419

wow i dont know how many comments i miss.
i cant respond as a council member because i have no authority to act individually(you know!) but some things were obvious if you read the news carefully.

1- council members didnt talk about past. actually because there were many many things should be discussed.
2- we just want to move forward.
3- still at this time council doesnt announce any team include project teams as "official". just try to finalize them.
4- council members didnt talk about community drive teams ( module dev , communications , ...) either.
5- council reach to this opinion that the most important things for a project software like XOOPS is XOOPS core. yes personally for me XOOPS is more than just some codes.(we should not get things personal)but it is a fact that core is like a brain for it. no brain result no body ( body = community)

at the end do you blame council because it doesnt have time to discuss about the agenda you think more important than the current one?
then i appreciate your idea but anyway it is a start from the 1st council.

Quote:

this team seems to be a transient team, in order to get things moving

council members discuss about this issue too. and finally no this is not a transient team( if it would be we should resign) it is the first project council.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

PepeMty Published 07/04/2007 2:49 Updated 07/04/2007 2:51 Just popping in Joined 11/14/2005 Comments 59

Quote:

Is this a joke? Are you kidding? Come on is this a Content Management System development website, or constitutional elections? Congratulations Management and memebers of Xoops.org: You just wasted another month of Constitutional reforms.

clap - clap - clap - clap

Alitan I do share your point of view here.

Quote:

Just have someone to be the team manager (not even leader), and others free to join/leave the team.
whoever wants to join, joins, whoever wants to contribute, contributes, and whoever wants to leave, leaves.

Exactly, we need much more action and much less arguments.

I mean, we are trying to leave behind several months (or more) of inactivity, or not?

Warm regards from sunny México

Pepe

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Shine Published 07/04/2007 4:58 Updated 07/04/2007 5:06 Just can't stay away Joined 07/22/2002 Comments 822

Quote:

Poster: phppp Posted: 2007/7/3 15:51:31

Hi draj,

First, the module development team is considered as a community driven team, please check the article:https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3820

Second, the module development team has never been announced officially yet and all rights assigned to the team leader candidate were temporary.

Third, as stated in the article, new team can be created or tuned in the future in case necessary. If you think the module development team is more of a Project team than of a community driven team, please make your proposals.

Hm, strange since this post done by your hand:
https://xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3792
Quote:

Development and management teams are being established

In the very near future, a couple of teams, including but not limited to, will be built:
Core Development - For XOOPS core development, hosted on sourceforge.net
Module Development - For third-party modules and addons, hosted on dev.xoops.org
Design - For XOOPS official default theme and official websites design
Documentation and Promotion - For XOOPS documentation site as well as technical tutorials and articles with addition of a promotion campaign
Community Coordination - daily community administrative jobs

Every team is now open to XOOPSers, and we are looking forward to seeing team leaders nominated in the immediate future.

Next for all teams temporary topics were opened into which they could assign. It is indeed strange to see the module team has been ignored, but the themes team not.
Why I would like to know. What is/are the differences between them?
Second: the module-team still stands in the line of mentioning (thus importancy) as the core team.
Yes I see you pointing at the Officially or talking now about not being a project team. May I point yoou at yoour own written topic:https://xoops.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=59479&forum=47
Quote:

Project teams

The XOOPS Core Development Team: Team creation is almost completed and the team has been starting informally on sourceforge.net
XOOPS Module Development Team: Team leader and member candidates are available, as well as relevant discussions and proposals
Documentation Team: team member candidates are available but no leader candidate yet
Design Team: team member candidates are available but no leader candidate yet
Community Coordinator Team: team member candidates are available but no leader candidate yet
Communication Team: proposed by tom and is updated frequently
XOOPS Advisory Team: a new trial, still being refined. we hope it ready to work soon.

i]Communication Team: proposed by tom and is updated frequently[/i]
Communication/News....... it is all about communication. Proposed by Tom, but he gets totally negletted. I am astonished!

Last but not least... see your own reply givin within this topic:
https://xoops.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=59488&forum=47
- Module Development Team - Report 17 June -
Quote:

Updates on June 20th:
The team is getting close to be finalized.
To let akitson get knowledge about the current situation of module development management, I have assigned admin permission to him on dev.xoops.org
For information about addons.xoops.org, relevant reports have not been received yet. Let's wait for longer.

On short:
I also don't understand why al of a sudden the module team gets the 'rank' of not being announced official by DJ/Phppp.
And don't understand why Tom has been treated like he has been now.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

incama Published 07/04/2007 4:59 Friend of XOOPS Joined 10/24/2003 Comments 513

Quote:

So please stop non constructive discussions.
I dream each night to see a clear core roadmap, the svn moving days after days, integrating the trackers contribution, more and more contributions within the SF trackers, more and more new skilled people coming to sort out the hole in which XOOPS is on the way to fall.

This is the spirit XOOPS needs, not those endless discussions about democracy and elections. I'm not intrested in reading all those posts in what is right or wrong, that's not the issue here. The issue is that XOOPS is offline and we need people to plug it in asap. Afterwards, when XOOPS is really alive again (codewise), we can turn our heads and look to the future! If you don't agree, then go piss on a blue stone for a while (as we Maastrichtenaren say!).

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Shine Published 07/04/2007 5:22 Just can't stay away Joined 07/22/2002 Comments 822

@ Incama and Marco:
Yes so right. But then again, people who have assigned to this job within/at a/several team(s) to the job of getting XOOPS back on track have/is been ignored. And that is what makes it strange.

That's all I have and wanted to say within this discussion. (no flaming at all, just being observant and sharing my thoughts)
As for now, I am following your advice and am going to piss on that blue stone for a while.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

chippyash Published 07/04/2007 6:06 Friend of XOOPS Joined 01/29/2004 Comments 501

CtazWolf Quote:

DJ, you really need to think about what position you want here at Xoops, if you want to continue as the core developer of XOOPS then you need to pass the star to someone who can concentrate on the real issues and problems XOOPS wide and you should run the XOOPS core development team. Sorry you can't do both and give your all to this community as a whole.

Something that has been said to him on more than one occasion. The bloke is either very thick skinned or what?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

MadFish Published 07/04/2007 6:07 Updated 07/04/2007 6:16 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/27/2003 Comments 1056

There are people that offered to help bring XOOPS back online but can't contribute because the system [still!] will not permit it. The lack of code development is a symptom of this problem, not the cause.

I've been posting the same point for at least three years now, so I think I'll pay a visit to the blue stone too.

Anyway, for whatever it is worth I think the council has very good people on it, and I expect they will do a good job, but I do not agree with the membership provisions.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

tom Published 07/04/2007 6:12 Updated 07/04/2007 6:15 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

OK for some reason, it seems people are seeing this as a power struggle, or someone after a title, well it isn't or at least from my angel.

It's about being asked to do a job, then after many hours, weeks of work, being ignored, not even acknowledged, then be cast aside without being informed of such actions.

For example you removed my news management permissions which is fine just would of been nice for someone to have told me, rather than me log in and find out.

Lets put this in another context for Marco, your commissioned to do a module, no money exchanged yet you put your trust in someone, then right at the last hurdle you find out everything you did was ignored and they went elsewhere, perhaps they had different ideas.

Ok, well I suppose we have to move past this, and move onwards so, studioC, irmtfan, Dave_L, Christian, I have faith in you all.

When this project fails it will more than likely be because of DJ, him not listening, being close minded and fulfilling his own agenda.

So lets see where we are in a years time then, and who DJ chooses to be his council then, as it is the choice of DJ remember, not the community.

Good luck studioC, irmtfan, Dave_L, Christian, I'm sure your efforts will prevail.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/04/2007 6:26 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@MadFish

> Anyway, for whatever it is worth I think the council has very good people on it,
> but I do not agree with the membership provisions.

And there are more than twice number of people who would be willing to do the job.

It is just not the question of if the phpbb-council composition has good people on it but the question of setting up a trend on one side and on the otherside accepting his naive behaviour of imposing dictatorship.

So it is also naive of all the people to keep on barking in the direction that the community must accept his dictatorships, while not being affected as well as it is cowardice of people to keep their mouth shut which eventually would directly or indirectly support him as a result.

It is cowardice to let such habits of commandership to allow it to function. Untill people protested and wipe-out the communism and dictatorship in this world, there was a dominance of those who ruled.

So the discussion above is not of any constitutional context but that of habits phppp, who shamelessly excercised sabbotaging other workers in the interest of the XOOPS community killing those energies intentionally.

And this must have a democratic consequences and he must not only admit his shamelss behaviour but also take all necessary steps towards cleaning his own behaviour.

Any person above or in the future who would support his action is to be seen as a supporter of cowardice and his dictatorship.

Any person who is intentionally willing to bark against this democratic protest here is not only naive but wisdomless as this would allow a terrible and malicious practice of him and his successors to rule the kindom the manner they want and play the cards of their choice.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/04/2007 6:33 Updated 07/04/2007 6:53 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@tom

> So lets see where we are in a years time then, and who DJ chooses to be his council then, as it is the choice of DJ remember, not the community.

People who have proved as dictators cannot remain as council members.

He must resign immediately and others in the community are cowards to not to go forward to ask this.

If he does not resign from the council, he proves himself that he wanted to aquire dictatorship, thereby fooling himself before the world. He has discredited himself by kicking you out, by kicking the Module Development Team out and forming a council of his choice. He even ended up in getting the rules of membership according to his choice to maintain his dictatorship.

Foolish enough, the other four members even agreed to this foolish approach, which is unanimously accepted as false.

All of the world is watching to his foolishness. So I wonder what kind of an adamont and shameless personality we are talking about, who is at the top of gulping such situations.

Xoops today is nothing more than a show of his dictatorship before the world and have lost its credibility. Whis new programmer or an investor would look at xoops, which this volatile and ridiculous approachs by phppp?

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

incama Published 07/04/2007 6:36 Friend of XOOPS Joined 10/24/2003 Comments 513

@Draj,

Software develppment is not democracy, open source isn't democracy, gpl isn't democracy. Don't know where you ever got that idea.

Let's for instance go to Finland and ask Linus if he was elected to be the head developer of the linux kernel, and if he wasn't elected, call him a dictator!. I wonder what he will answer,.,.(something with a blue stone I guess).

I agree alot of discussion have to be made, but let politics out of the discussion please.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/04/2007 6:44 Updated 07/04/2007 7:18 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@ incama

> Software develppment is not democracy, open source isn't democracy, gpl isn't democracy. Don't know where you ever got that idea.

Thanks for reminding it to me.

Is the world of software, especially in the area of opensource a game of dictatorship to kill the working spirit of others?

What is the discussion above about? Did you follow at all?

Forget the term democracy. What did phpbb/DJ do? He used his position to a gigantic manner in influencing and inducing the formation of a council of his friends, getting Rules of the membership passed the manner he wanted.

This is a historic mark of a Begin of a new Era of his Bossing around or dictatorship.

So what do you call this as? Exlain me please? If he had the same intention of an open spirit like before i.e. about 3 - 4 weeks agon, he would not have ended up with his foolishness like he did now. There were things tht changed the situation that led him to behave the way he did.

So if I use the term democracy is not out of politics but to explain his behaviour using a term that people understand. There is no need to use the term of democracy or politics. By no chance XOOPS is a political party and I am aware of it. But also by no chance, XOOPS is a little toy to pay and satisfy the ego-premise of phppp and must remain within the spirit of open source.

Do you agree with his methods of killing the working spirit of tom, as seen above? (Mind you, he has been the most diplomatic in his expressions and if you want to understand his xpressions, you need to multiply a hundred times to understand his problems...)

Do you agree that phppp or one partcular person from the core team must have powers to select four friends into his council and claim that the council is a groups work? Do you agree to a One-man-show, one-man-bossism?

Do you agree that his behaviour of announcing the Module Development Team by himself, encouragement by himself and thereafter killing it completely, pushing it out of the discussion as a correct behaviour?

If you do not agree to his behaviour mentioned above, then you could:

Either open your mouth and say it or choose not to support him.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

incama Published 07/04/2007 6:54 Friend of XOOPS Joined 10/24/2003 Comments 513

As I said, there will be discussions. And to answer your question about dj. Yes I do support him, and why, because he did something other than only talk. I do not believe DJ is a evil man that will turn XOOPS into an evil cms. If it wasn't for him, we were still waiting on a sign of life from Skalpa.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/04/2007 7:06 Updated 07/04/2007 7:22 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@incama

> Yes I do support him, and why, because he did something other than only talk.

Yes, I also support him, and why? Because I like his permission templates, I like his work, I like his engagement in all areas. Even after his ridiculous behaviour, I would still like his creativity as my liking a concept is not associated to subjectivity of a person or character or a behaviour.

Are you (and others) clear about my position?

> I do not believe DJ is a evil man that will turn XOOPS into an evil cms.

Yes, I do not also beleive that he will turn it into an evil cms!

So we agree about it on those topics.

But you do not agree on his actions and confirm them as wrong, especially as a community member. You fail to say this directly. You fail to recognise that his approach was entirely wrong, and if you did recognise, you fail to say it openly.

Between friends, there should be a room of critism. If it is not there, there is no friendship. The same applies to a community work. phppp/DJ is not my enemy and will never ever be. Nor are the others, to be very clear. If phppp/DJ thinks I am his enemy (which most likely he would NOT think this way) due to my protest against his behaviour, then he or others better undergo a therapy to understand why!

However, I am cocksure that he knows exactly what is being protested here. (Thieves knows all times that they are thieves!) The best option phppp and other illigitimate council members has is to appologise before the community and say that there will be a new start in the right manner. People make mistakes until they are arrested.

DJ must say this here that he made mistakes and no one will remember it further, however if he does not, it will only lead himself to a disaster.

No one objected his activities until it became evident that he actually played with not just one person. This came out due to the discussions and comments here. He is still hiding behind the bush and offers no explaination, for which many are eagerly waiting.

There should be activities that needs to be followed within a general convention of a community spirit.

His actions were not in the interest of our community as mentioned above and that needs to be protested.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Catzwolf Published 07/04/2007 7:55 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

@Draj;

I think I need to stop you here, right now before you continue to throw accusations around like this. Because you, whether you like it or not, could be doing more harm than good for Xoops.

For a start, I believe that your statements are fueled more by anger than rational thinking nor reason, and that cannot be good for all concerned. I can sympathize with your anger and frustration, as the last three years have been filled with empty promises and in many cases lies.

If your fight is to bring the module development team inline with the other teams, then your statements are doing more harm for your cause than good right now. If you wish to get change, you need to present your rational arguments and not ‘hot headed’ accusations. Present your case to the public properly and without the resentment that is clearly visible or no one will take you seriously.

I do have clear strong feelings regarding module development. It was I along with Herko that started the module development team over 4 years ago. The foundations were laid then to bring some standardization into module development. dev.xoops.com was created to bring developers closer together and share ideas and solutions. I was the one that created development teams in the hope of bringing the modules more up to date. CBB Forum was in fact born from this team. Now that site area is a run down forgotten area.

I will say that I do not think that DJ has forgotten about the module development team, but I do think that he is probably more overwhelmed with the situation and currently taking on more than he should at present.

So I please ask you to stop with the personal insults to DJ character, and focus on what is really important. If you want change then fair enough, but do it in a manner that befits what XOOPS should stand for and not a slagging match for all.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

incama Published 07/04/2007 7:57 Friend of XOOPS Joined 10/24/2003 Comments 513

Okay, I give up, you win.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Catzwolf Published 07/04/2007 8:14 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

> Okay, I give up, you win.

Actually, there are no winners only losers if this arguement continues in the vain that it is going.

@Draj;

Please can you take this discssion to a forum topic? It maybe more constructive then.

Thanks

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/04/2007 11:30 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

@incama

The winner is or could be the community, not myself. But here is no game to be played between myself and DJ but to end the silly game DJ is playing with other responsible community members. The time has come to put a brake to this.

So if there is a win, then you win as a community member. And if there is a loser, then it is the ego of someone who would lose.

@Catzwolf

You are wrong, when you mention about harm by my messages. There are people who have understood exactly what is going on. But moreover, there are people who are already aware of the situation. If they refrain to open their muth and avoid any confrontation, does not mean that everything is fine here.

You are absolutely right. This discussion needs to be taken further in the forums. You are further right in terms of information and proofs.

It is therefore lets begin debating this matter in the forum, in a non-agitated matter. Hence pl. visit the following thread:

Continue ...

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

whooven Published 07/04/2007 15:08 Just popping in Joined 02/17/2006 Comments 42

While I don't have an opinion about how best to organize and move this project forward beyond what has already been said, I do want to jump in here to say thanks for the communication and update. Regular and frequent updates showing some progress is a sign this project is alive and worth following/supporting. Thanks for that.

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

alitan Published 07/04/2007 15:22 Updated 07/04/2007 15:24 Quite a regular Joined 03/14/2004 Comments 399

[size=xx-large]THIS IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL ELECTIONS, IT IS AN OPEN SOURCE PROJECT DEVELOPEMENT WEBSITE[/size]

CHOP CHOP PEOPLE, BACK TO WORK

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

Mamba Published 07/04/2007 17:44 Moderator Joined 04/23/2004 Comments 11366

Project XOOPS Infrastructure Proposal

JOB DESCRIPTIONS

Director (elected position) - An individual elected to provide leadership to keep Project XOOPS moving forward to fulfill its prime objectives. S/he uses a defined and published plan to help accomplish XOOPS goals. The Director keeps in contact with all Team Coordinators, Project Council members, the Advisory Group and XOOPS members in general. S/he is responsible for supporting all Team Coordinators in effectively leading their teams and delivering agreed upon results. The Director should provide periodic updates to the XOOPS community of XOOPS activities and get involved in its endeavors.

Assistant Director (appointed by Director, subject to approval of Project Council) - An individual who assists the Director in carrying out that person’s duties, helping with communication, standing in for her/him when s/he is temporarily unable to fulfill Director's duties , and performing other mutually agreed tasks.

Project Council – A group of members dedicated to helping XOOPS stay focused and keep in contact with its members. Membership in the XOOPS Project Council is a privilege and is by position within the Project. New Project Council positions may be proposed by existing members, and voted upon by the existing Project Council. Not every project within XOOPS is represented directly on the Project Council. Project Council members, especially the Director, Assistant Director, and Teams Leaders should maintain communications with Team Leaders who are not on the Project Council. At least once a year following the annual election of the new Director, the XOOPS Project Council will examine the entire structure; they will consider if the current structure is effective in helping the Project to reach its goals and recommend required changes.

Project Council Positions for 2007:
• Director
• Assistant Director
• Core Development Team Leader
• Module Development Team Leader
• Design Team Leader
• Documentation and Promotion Team Leader
• Community Coordination Team Leader
• XOOPS Technical Team Leader

Decisions are made by majority vote. Either the Director or Assistant Director may bring up a matter on which the Project Council will vote. Any Project Council member with support from another member may also initiate a vote on any matter. It requires a simple majority of those voting to add or to delete a position/person to the Project Council.

Advisory Group – Well known XOOPS experts will be invited to join this low traffic list to help XOOPS stay in touch with the advancements of XOOPS. This list is by invitation only.

Team Leader – Individuals responsible for maintaining contact with team members and working with team members to establish and follow a plan to accomplish team goals. The Project Council will help team coordinators with planning, implementation, or brainstorming. Each team will establish its own structure to best accomplish its goals. Periodically the Coordinator will provide a status update for the previous month(s) to the Teams Coordinator. The update will include the plan for the immediate future and will be reflected in XOOPS updates.

Elections of XOOPS Director

XOOPS Director is an elected position. The candidate should be a well known individual, accepted by the XOOPS community and an active contributor to XOOPS in the past. Below are the election rules:

- Election every year on the same date (to avoid that it is "forgotten"). Proposed date is:
o Oct. 1st of each year
- The date will be announced/reminded at least a month before the election
- Every XOOPS member should be able to vote - not only Council members.
- XOOPS members should be able to nominate themselves and should be able to discuss the candidates.
- Candidates have to show support of at least two XOOPS members and one Project Council member, before they go on the ballot
- Candidates should create HTML pages stating how they feel they would direct XOOPS. These pages will be placed on XOOPS Web
- We will have one trusted individual as the Election Manager, responsible for correctness of the Elections
- The poll will be anonymous using the standard poll capability of XOOPS. After the poll is closed, the system will generate automatically the results, so there is no possibility to “tamper” with the results.
- The poll will be open for a week to ensure high participation;
- We will run a test before the real elections; so all members will be able to make themselves familiar with the polling features.
- Elections will be decided by simple majority, with minimum of 50 valid votes. If we don't have 50 valid votes, the election will be repeated, and if there is still no result, the Project Council will decide on the new Director
- If there is only one candidate, s/he has to receive minimum of 51% of valid votes. If s/he won’t receive it, the election will be repeated, and if there is still no result, the Project Council will decide on the new Director
- In case the newly elected person does not do their job as expected (or resigns for personal reasons), the Project Council selects a temporary Director, if needed, till the reminder of the cadency.

Proposed Time-line for Director Election (each year)

August 16 - candidates registration starts, election date reminded
August 30 - registration finishes, candidates get their web pages, and discussion starts.
Sept. 14 - elections starts
Sept. 21 - election stops
Sept. 22 - elections results.
Oct. 1 – new XOOPS Director takes the office

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

draj Published 07/05/2007 6:32 Updated 07/05/2007 6:33 Quite a regular Joined 06/23/2005 Comments 271

May I request all to participate in the forum discussion instead of adding your constructive comments here:

>>> To forum discussion...

Re: Establishment of XOOPS Project Council

hervet Published 08/09/2007 5:12 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/04/2003 Comments 2267

Hello,

I'm asking to be part of the Council team.

Bye,
Hervé

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